“My hunch is he uses such extremes so that if his students take in merely two percent of his teaching, they will be better humans.”
I’m reminded of an interview with a dog trainer I once read, who was being asked why his methods were so harsh. He replied that his clients only enacted about 10% of what he recommended, so he dialed things up tenfold to make sure what needed to get through, did.
As to pedagogy, I’m reminded of this old joke (apologies for the animal cruelty; to be interpreted metaphorically):
It seems a farmer was complaining to a friend about the trouble he was having in getting his stubborn mule to move. After listening to the farmer’s complaint, the friend said he knew just what to do.
“Get a two-by-four and whack the mule across the head with all your might,” advised the friend. The farmer was taken aback. “But how will that get him to move?” asked the farmer. “Well, you see,” the friend said, “first you’ve got to get his attention!”
...killable, yes; but breakable—never. This should be taught from the early days of any human being. It should be an instinct built in all of us. Maybe it is, and we just forgot it.
"What ought one to say then as each hardship comes? I was practicing for this, I was training for this." Just be mentally and physically ready. You can't separate them.
It’s all one. As Mark Twight is fond of saying, “The mind is primary.” Not separated, but integrated. I’m leaning towards the side that it is instinct and it’s teaching has slowly atrophies, and now there are few left who know how to teach it. It’s a good fight.
Let me pose a question you won’t like but I think should be asked. John died saving one man. How many people would John have saved, or lives enriched, had he lived? He clearly was an extraordinary person. It was unquestionably a noble sacrifice, but was it a wise choice? This begs the question of whether or not John could have lived with himself had he stayed clipped in.
It’s tough. If we could unwind the chain of cause and effect and prevent the war itself, maybe he would have invented the cure for cancer. Or maybe he would have been a drunk or depressed because nothing called on him. It’s a hard game to play. I can only admire what men like him have done in the situation they had no control over, relying solely on control of themselves.
That story got me, a perfect exclamation point to the masterclass above it.
When my son was an infant, my wife called to tell me that he had a little blood coming out of his nose. In an instant, I had his pallbearers picked out, could picture what I would say at his funeral, how I would deliver news of his death to our loved ones and friends. In the same instant, I asked a couple of clarifying questions and learned that he had scratched a small cut into his nose with his fingernail.
“What the fuck was THAT?” was my first thought on hanging up the phone. I believe it was my mind’s way of preparing me for the worst- I felt no panic, no fear, only answers to questions that are uncomfortable to ask.
Relative to this type of thinking, physical discomfort seems easy to achieve- turn the A/C off, do some pushups, take the stairs. The mental side of it might seem “safer”, but in might be harder to recover from without the proper context and training. Regardless of the dangers involved, one MUST prepare if we are to emulate the ideals set forth in your writing.
Thank you as always for your persistence in chasing the thread.
I'm sorry. Your story made me laugh even though the subject is so terrible, because my mind plays these future scenarios out constantly and I wonder at times if that is abnormal. Maybe not for some. Agreed on the rest of your points—the mind and body are one, training one without the other is futile. Uri had a good comment on this in another thread above as well. One of the surprising rewards of substack is encountering so many people who get it.
No apology needed. We laugh about it all the time. The funniest shit in the world is verbalizing the craziness that goes on inside the head. Glad I’m not the only psychopath out there.
I'm weaving the idea of 'staring into evil' into my novel and this resonates with that. It's the question of what we'd do when things get really bad. Have we ever considered it in any way?
Sam, the interview podcast with Kit Perez was great. You really explained well your stand on life and our current state. Suggestion: post a transcript as a substack with Kit’s permission.
Yes, I've only heard the first fifteen minutes, and turned around to listen to it all over again. Full of great insights. I look forward to listening to the entire podcast while doing Tai Chi tomorrow morning--and will probably listen to the whole episode twice.
Great podcast interview Sam. I especially liked your comments on finding meaning through our relationships and time spent with family, friends and neighbors. And your thoughts about the individual are right on. I titled one of my training programs, “There IS an I in Team!”
It's funny to consider how words like "masculine" and "extreme" have negative connotations in certain social circles. It's unfortunate since these words are simply that: words. Their cooption is unfortunate since some people are so sensitive to them that they shut down at the mere mention.
I suppose they are simply on a longer journey ahead of them than those who are able to grapple with linguistic nuance.
100%. Both those words in particular are striking on a primal level, and stifling that by stigmatizing them is causing more damage than most people might imagine. That pendulum will swing.
That’s hilarious. I don’t think he was hiding, they were renowned warriors, he just got extraordinarily lucky he found his way back and had the kind of leader he did.
Since your previous great riff on applied Stoic philosophy, ie "devious shit", I've been meaning to ask if you've come across SOG legend Henry Thompson? He's written two volumes of "SOG Codename Dynamite" full of his amazing war record as a SOG One Zero.
In the second volume, he describes literally walking out the gates of the SOG compound on his way to a much deserved three day R & R. A helicopter landed and the crew chief used some "devious shit", yelling to Thompson and asking if he knew how to hook up a McGuire rig (the extraction device from which MoH winner One Zero John Kedenburg unhooked himself with selfless courage). Thompson ran over, set aside his M4, and started hooking up the McGuire rig. The copter began lifting off to return to combat on a Bright Light rescue mission--with Thompson, totally unarmed, still on it. The crew chief said "Sorry 'bout that".
What unfolds is an absolutely extraordinary combat mission--which Thompson somehow survived. He should have won the Medal of Honor for what happened next.
The phrase "Sorry 'bout that" was apparently a recurring phrase in Vietnam after somebody had pulled some "devious shit".
Better to die standing up than live on your knees.
I have never been in the extreme situation, so I can't say how I would behave. But I respect those who have done it, while others demean them.
I had this thought, even as I was typing: Should we see Renee Good and Alex Pretti as people who were killable yes; but breakable, never? Or were they fools? We have to ask, and attempt to answer, these questions.
Most of us have not been tested like Kedenburg. Neither have I, since I am still alive. What an example to aspire to.
When it comes to Good and Pretty, we now get into the "rightness" of one's beliefs. It is possible to be killable and unbreakable and yet completely wrong. Whether they were or not is up for each individual to decide.
“The passive interpretation of the Invincible Man is that we should not be dismayed when terrible things happen.”
Such a good analysis, Sam! Stoicism, and to a degree Buddhism, are often packaged and sold as anti-anxiety medications (Don’t worry! Be happy!). It’s the half of the Serenity Prayer (a perfect stoic mantra) that advises us to accept the things we can’t change. But you’re writing about the other half that prescribes the COURAGE to change the things we can change. Without embracing both sides, we collapse into a narcotized state that prepares us to live fully in neither peace nor war.
This is well framed Baird, and the nuance is crucial. Too much emphasis is on the acceptance: necessary, but insufficient. The other half is crucial. Thank you!
Fight like Achilles or even Hector when the occasion calls for it. The other translation I saw was "Who then is unconquerable? He who the inevitable cannot overcome." There is no shrinking or shirking here in Epictetus' text. Exuberant contemplation and sublime action. Master yourself and then bodies of foes float down the river!
“My hunch is he uses such extremes so that if his students take in merely two percent of his teaching, they will be better humans.”
I’m reminded of an interview with a dog trainer I once read, who was being asked why his methods were so harsh. He replied that his clients only enacted about 10% of what he recommended, so he dialed things up tenfold to make sure what needed to get through, did.
Great stuff as always, Sam.
That’s pedagogy at its best. Or rather pedagogy as it used to be and should probably be once again. Thanks Lou.
As to pedagogy, I’m reminded of this old joke (apologies for the animal cruelty; to be interpreted metaphorically):
It seems a farmer was complaining to a friend about the trouble he was having in getting his stubborn mule to move. After listening to the farmer’s complaint, the friend said he knew just what to do.
“Get a two-by-four and whack the mule across the head with all your might,” advised the friend. The farmer was taken aback. “But how will that get him to move?” asked the farmer. “Well, you see,” the friend said, “first you’ve got to get his attention!”
That's Epictetus... love this Baird. An intellectual two-by-four.
...killable, yes; but breakable—never. This should be taught from the early days of any human being. It should be an instinct built in all of us. Maybe it is, and we just forgot it.
"What ought one to say then as each hardship comes? I was practicing for this, I was training for this." Just be mentally and physically ready. You can't separate them.
It’s all one. As Mark Twight is fond of saying, “The mind is primary.” Not separated, but integrated. I’m leaning towards the side that it is instinct and it’s teaching has slowly atrophies, and now there are few left who know how to teach it. It’s a good fight.
That's the extreme and badass I aspire to be, all my respect to John Kedenburg.
You and me both, Kai. What an exceptional human being.
Let me pose a question you won’t like but I think should be asked. John died saving one man. How many people would John have saved, or lives enriched, had he lived? He clearly was an extraordinary person. It was unquestionably a noble sacrifice, but was it a wise choice? This begs the question of whether or not John could have lived with himself had he stayed clipped in.
It’s tough. If we could unwind the chain of cause and effect and prevent the war itself, maybe he would have invented the cure for cancer. Or maybe he would have been a drunk or depressed because nothing called on him. It’s a hard game to play. I can only admire what men like him have done in the situation they had no control over, relying solely on control of themselves.
That story got me, a perfect exclamation point to the masterclass above it.
When my son was an infant, my wife called to tell me that he had a little blood coming out of his nose. In an instant, I had his pallbearers picked out, could picture what I would say at his funeral, how I would deliver news of his death to our loved ones and friends. In the same instant, I asked a couple of clarifying questions and learned that he had scratched a small cut into his nose with his fingernail.
“What the fuck was THAT?” was my first thought on hanging up the phone. I believe it was my mind’s way of preparing me for the worst- I felt no panic, no fear, only answers to questions that are uncomfortable to ask.
Relative to this type of thinking, physical discomfort seems easy to achieve- turn the A/C off, do some pushups, take the stairs. The mental side of it might seem “safer”, but in might be harder to recover from without the proper context and training. Regardless of the dangers involved, one MUST prepare if we are to emulate the ideals set forth in your writing.
Thank you as always for your persistence in chasing the thread.
I'm sorry. Your story made me laugh even though the subject is so terrible, because my mind plays these future scenarios out constantly and I wonder at times if that is abnormal. Maybe not for some. Agreed on the rest of your points—the mind and body are one, training one without the other is futile. Uri had a good comment on this in another thread above as well. One of the surprising rewards of substack is encountering so many people who get it.
Thanks Tim.
No apology needed. We laugh about it all the time. The funniest shit in the world is verbalizing the craziness that goes on inside the head. Glad I’m not the only psychopath out there.
I'm weaving the idea of 'staring into evil' into my novel and this resonates with that. It's the question of what we'd do when things get really bad. Have we ever considered it in any way?
It is a fascinating rabbit hole to dig down, and must be truly enjoyable digging into it with fiction. Stoked to hear how you weave it.
Sam, the interview podcast with Kit Perez was great. You really explained well your stand on life and our current state. Suggestion: post a transcript as a substack with Kit’s permission.
Great call, thanks Barry. I'll check in with Kit!
Yes, I've only heard the first fifteen minutes, and turned around to listen to it all over again. Full of great insights. I look forward to listening to the entire podcast while doing Tai Chi tomorrow morning--and will probably listen to the whole episode twice.
With your intellectual firepower, Chris, I’m stoked to hear this.
Great podcast interview Sam. I especially liked your comments on finding meaning through our relationships and time spent with family, friends and neighbors. And your thoughts about the individual are right on. I titled one of my training programs, “There IS an I in Team!”
Let’s go, Laura! Thank you for listening and for your thoughts, your program sounds amazing!
Ouch! Thanks again, Sam!
You’re welcome, brother thank you for reading.
It's funny to consider how words like "masculine" and "extreme" have negative connotations in certain social circles. It's unfortunate since these words are simply that: words. Their cooption is unfortunate since some people are so sensitive to them that they shut down at the mere mention.
I suppose they are simply on a longer journey ahead of them than those who are able to grapple with linguistic nuance.
100%. Both those words in particular are striking on a primal level, and stifling that by stigmatizing them is causing more damage than most people might imagine. That pendulum will swing.
And the guy hiding in the forest, but reappearing at the last minute??? I don't want to be that guy.
That’s hilarious. I don’t think he was hiding, they were renowned warriors, he just got extraordinarily lucky he found his way back and had the kind of leader he did.
I hope you're right... He's the only one who knows what he was doing.
“the Old Man would have us be killable, yes; but breakable—never. “
What more can any man, or woman, aspire to? Thanks for reminding us Sam.
I know you know it, Marshall. Thank you for jumping in here.
Since your previous great riff on applied Stoic philosophy, ie "devious shit", I've been meaning to ask if you've come across SOG legend Henry Thompson? He's written two volumes of "SOG Codename Dynamite" full of his amazing war record as a SOG One Zero.
In the second volume, he describes literally walking out the gates of the SOG compound on his way to a much deserved three day R & R. A helicopter landed and the crew chief used some "devious shit", yelling to Thompson and asking if he knew how to hook up a McGuire rig (the extraction device from which MoH winner One Zero John Kedenburg unhooked himself with selfless courage). Thompson ran over, set aside his M4, and started hooking up the McGuire rig. The copter began lifting off to return to combat on a Bright Light rescue mission--with Thompson, totally unarmed, still on it. The crew chief said "Sorry 'bout that".
What unfolds is an absolutely extraordinary combat mission--which Thompson somehow survived. He should have won the Medal of Honor for what happened next.
The phrase "Sorry 'bout that" was apparently a recurring phrase in Vietnam after somebody had pulled some "devious shit".
Better to die standing up than live on your knees.
I have never been in the extreme situation, so I can't say how I would behave. But I respect those who have done it, while others demean them.
I had this thought, even as I was typing: Should we see Renee Good and Alex Pretti as people who were killable yes; but breakable, never? Or were they fools? We have to ask, and attempt to answer, these questions.
Most of us have not been tested like Kedenburg. Neither have I, since I am still alive. What an example to aspire to.
When it comes to Good and Pretty, we now get into the "rightness" of one's beliefs. It is possible to be killable and unbreakable and yet completely wrong. Whether they were or not is up for each individual to decide.
“The passive interpretation of the Invincible Man is that we should not be dismayed when terrible things happen.”
Such a good analysis, Sam! Stoicism, and to a degree Buddhism, are often packaged and sold as anti-anxiety medications (Don’t worry! Be happy!). It’s the half of the Serenity Prayer (a perfect stoic mantra) that advises us to accept the things we can’t change. But you’re writing about the other half that prescribes the COURAGE to change the things we can change. Without embracing both sides, we collapse into a narcotized state that prepares us to live fully in neither peace nor war.
This is well framed Baird, and the nuance is crucial. Too much emphasis is on the acceptance: necessary, but insufficient. The other half is crucial. Thank you!
Fight like Achilles or even Hector when the occasion calls for it. The other translation I saw was "Who then is unconquerable? He who the inevitable cannot overcome." There is no shrinking or shirking here in Epictetus' text. Exuberant contemplation and sublime action. Master yourself and then bodies of foes float down the river!
There is never shrinking—absolute commitment to honesty and acceptance and self-ownership. We are lucky he existed.
Excellent as always Sam!! I look forward to your articles!
Rock on, Don. Thank you and likewise!